Difference between revisions of "Talk:Onkyo DX-6850"

 
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Warum wurde die sehr gute Version von "der Fragende" an "die Vorlage" angepasst?
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Why was the very good version of "the questioner" adapted to "the template"?
Da gabs meiner Meinung nach nichts anzupassen - Vorlagen dienen nicht dazu,
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In my opinion, there was nothing to adapt - templates are not used
gute und wertvolle Beiträge zu beschneiden. Frage: Warum ist z.B. die sehr gute
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to cut down good and valuable contributions. Question: Why did e.g. the very good
Gesamtübersicht von Onkyo verschwunden? MfG, Uwe
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overview of Onkyo disappeared? MfG, Uwe
Nochmals - nur ein schlecht Strukturierter Beitrag sollte an die Vorlage angepasst werden -
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Again - only a badly structured post should be adjusted to the template -.
ein gut strukturierter nicht.
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a well structured one should not.
  
== meine Meinung ==
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== my opinion ==
  
Warum wurde der Beitrag wieder hergestellt und Fehlerhaft geändert?? '''Ich wünsche es nicht mehr!'''
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Why was the post restored and incorrectly changed??? '''I do not wish it more!'''
Ich habe meine Beiträge gelöscht, da der User ''Passat'' ohne mich vorher zu kontaktieren in Eigenregie meine Beiträge der Vorlage angepasst und (für mich) mit Mühe erstellten Tabellen, die zum Gerätevergleich bestimmt waren, gelöscht hatte. Solange solche eigenwillige User andere Arbeiten zerstören, bin ich nicht mehr gewillt mein Wissen hier zu präsentieren.
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I have deleted my contributions, because the user ''Passat'' without contacting me beforehand in self-direction my contributions of the template adapted and (for me) with trouble created tables, which were intended for the equipment comparison, had deleted. As long as such self-willed users destroy other works, I am no longer willing to present my knowledge here.
Nach meinem Wissen sollten Vorlagen nur für ungeübte, oder bequeme User zur Verfügung stehen.
+
To my knowledge, templates should only be available for untrained or comfortable users.
Ich bitte in diesem Athemzug auch den Administrator meine von mir gelöschten Beiträge '''und''' die von mir hochgeladenen Bilder aus der Wiederherstellungskonsole unwiderbringlich zu löschen, da auf die Bilder das Copyright durch selbsterstellung bei mir liegt. betroffen davon sind die Komplettbeiträge DX-6850, T-9890DSR + 3Bilder und 2 Bilder vom EQ-201
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I ask in this athemzug also the administrator my contributions deleted by me '''and''' the pictures uploaded by me from the recovery console irretrievably to delete, since on the pictures the copyright lies by self production with me. affected of it are the complete contributions DX-6850, T-9890DSR + 3Pictures and 2 pictures of the EQ-201
--[[Benutzer:Der Fragende|Der Fragende]] 10:57, 22. Sep 2009 (UTC)
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--[[User:The Questioner|The Questioner]] 10:57, 22 Sep 2009 (UTC)
  
Was sollen Gesamtübersichten in den Gerätedaten?
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What's the point of overall overviews in the device data?
Die Gesamtübersichten findet man beim Hersteller, da muß man die nicht auch noch bei hunderten von Geräten aufführen.
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You can find the complete overviews at the manufacturer, there is no need to list them for hundreds of devices.
Eine Gesamtübersicht sollte doch ausreichend sein.
+
A general overview should be sufficient.
Im Übrigen sind die Vorlagen nicht für ungeübte oder bequeme Benutzer, sondern um eine einheitliche Struktur zu bekommen, damit die Beiträge vergleichbar sind.
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By the way, the templates are not for untrained or comfortable users, but to get a uniform structure, so that the contributions are comparable.
Siehe [[Hilfe:Neues Gerät|Hilfe Neues Gerät]], Zitat: "Das Benutzen der Vorlage gewährleistet, dass die Artikel zu den verschiedenen Geräte einheitlich aussehen."
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See [[Help:New Device|Help New Device]], quote, "Using the template ensures that articles on different devices look consistent."
Auch habe ich keine Fehler in die Beiträge eingebaut, sondern nur um Informationen aus Onkyo-Unterlagen ergänzt!
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Also, I didn't add any errors to the posts, just added information from Onkyo documents!
--[[Benutzer:Passat|Passat]] 14:23, 22. Sep 2009 (UTC)
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--[[User:Passat|Passat]] 14:23, 22 Sep 2009 (UTC)
  
== Bitte lasst uns versuchen auf einer sachlichen und konstruktiven Ebene zu diskutieren. ==
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== Please let's try to discuss on a factual and constructive level. ==
  
Meine persönliche Meinung:
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My personal opinion:
  
1. Ihr seid Beide überaus engagierte und kompetente Nutzer und teilt das selbe wundervolle Hobby
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1. you are both extremely dedicated and competent users and share the same wonderful hobby.
- vielen Dank an dieser Stelle.
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- many thanks at this point.
  
2. Wenn einer sich die Mühe macht, und einen offensichtlich gut ausgearbeiteten
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2. if one makes the effort, and an obviously well elaborated
Artikel auf Hifi-Wiki.de einstellt, sollte über eine solche Änderung
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article on Hifi-Wiki.de, such a change should at least be discussed
zumindest VORHER eine Diskussion angestoßen werden - das ist nicht geschehen und tut mir leid.
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at least BEFORE a discussion is initiated - that is not done and I'm sorry.
  
3. Passat wollte Dich sicher nicht mit den Änderungen verärgern,
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3. passat surely didn't want to annoy you with the changes,
auch er steckt äußerst viel Zeit und Engagement in dieses Projekt.
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he also put a lot of time and effort into this project.
In diesem Fall kann ich Deinen Ärger allerdings auch nachvollziehen.
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However, in this case I can understand your anger.
Die Änderung geschah mit Sicherheit nicht böswillig, vielleicht aber unnötig.
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The change was certainly not malicious, but perhaps unnecessary.
  
4. Grundsätzlich denke ich, dass die Vorlagen nicht gleich "Gesetz" sind.
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4. basically I think that templates are not equal to "law".
Es gibt bessere Möglichkeiten, ein Gerät zu präsentieren - natürlich auch schlechtere.
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There are better ways to present a device - and worse, of course.
Ich bin der Meinung dass die individuelle Gestaltungsfreiheit - so sie denn übersichtlich ist -
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I am of the opinion that individual freedom of design - if it is clear - is
nicht im Widerspruch mit der Vergleichbarkeit steht.
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is not in conflict with comparability.
  
5. Ich würde getreu dem Motto:
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5 I would be true to the motto:
  
  
''Lieber ein guter Artikel der nicht der Vorlage entspricht, als gar kein Artikel und ein
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''Better a good article that doesn't match the template than no article at all and an
verärgerter Benutzer''
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disgruntled user''
  
  
dafür plädieren, "der Fragende"s Ursprungs-Version wieder herzustellen
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to restore "The Questioner's" original version...
und Passats ergänzende Informationen aus den Onkyo-Unterlagen einzupflegen.
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and add in Passat's supplementary information from the Onkyo documents.
Wäre das eine für Beide akzeptable Lösung?
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Would that be an acceptable solution for both?
  
Beste Grüße,
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Best regards,
Euer WikiSysop
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Your WikiSysop
  
: Ich muss Passat insofern recht geben als dass die Geräteseiten m.E. der falsche Ort für eine Auflistung aller verwandten Geräte sind. Dafür ist ja schließlich in diesem Fall [[Onkyo CD-Player]] gedacht!--[[Benutzer:Gero|Gero]] 15:28, 22. Sep 2009 (UTC)
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I have to agree with Passat that the device pages are the wrong place to list all related devices. After all, that's what [[Onkyo CD Player]] is for in this case!--[[User:Gero|Gero]] 15:28, 22 Sep 2009 (UTC)
  
  
 
----
 
----
  
Hallo Zusammen, vielen Dank für Eure Sicht der Dinge.
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Hi all, thanks for your perspective on things.
Mich persönlich stört die Übersichtstabelle nicht. Schadet sie denn an der Stelle?
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Personally, I don't mind the summary table. Does it do any harm at this point?
  
Ich verstehe aber nicht, warum z.B. folgende Informationen bei der Anpassung
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But I don't understand why e.g. the following information has been lost
verloren gegangen sind:
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has been lost:
  
# Drehgeschwindigkeit: 500 - 200 umdrehungen/min
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# Rotation speed: 500 - 200 rpm
# Lesegeschwindigkeit: 1,2 - 1,4 meter/sec  
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# reading speed: 1,2 - 1,4 meter/sec  
# Gleichlaufschwankung: nicht mehr Messbar
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# synchronous fluctuation: no longer measurable
  
Engagierte und motivierte Benutzer wie der Fragende
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Committed and motivated users like the questioner
sind für Hifi-Wiki m.E. sehr wichtig.
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are very important for Hifi-Wiki in my opinion.
Im Sinne des Projektes und mit Rücksicht auf die Urheber der Artikel,
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In the sense of the project and with consideration for the authors of the articles,
sollten wir vielleicht darüber nachdenken,
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maybe we should think about
welche Vorteile eine weniger strenge Anwendung der
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what advantages a less strict application of the
Vorlagen hätte. Man denke z.B. an die bloße Zeitersparnis wenn man nicht mehr
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templates would have. Think, for example, of the sheer time savings of not having to adjust
so viele Einträge anpassen müsste.
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so many entries.
  
Was meint Ihr dazu?
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What do you think?
  
Besten Gruß, euer WikiSysop
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Best regards, your WikiSysop
 +
 
 +
----
 +
I deleted this information because every CD player has this data without exception.
 +
It is part of the CD specification and therefore the mention is simply superfluous.
 +
 
 +
About the device table: As already mentioned, this table already exists.
 +
Why repeat it for each device?
 +
This only inflates the database unnecessarily.
 +
A unfortunately forgotten principle of data processing is called "data economy".
 +
This means that you should avoid storing data more than once where it is not absolutely necessary.
 +
 
 +
About the use of the templates:
 +
I think the idea of the templates is very good, because it makes the comparison of different devices much easier.
 +
And the templates are designed so flexibly that you can also add any information that goes beyond the templates, e.g. under "special equipment" and "remarks".
 +
--[[User:Passat|Passat]] 22:42, 22 Sep 2009 (UTC)
 +
 
 +
----
 +
 
 +
Hi Passat,
 +
thank you very much for the feedback.
 +
I think your arguments are also good and understandable.
 +
 
 +
 
 +
@thequestioner: As you can see from the length of the discussion,
 +
we take your objections very seriously.
 +
In the end, your article has been preserved almost completely
 +
- "only" the overview-table was deleted - which I can put back into the article
 +
again into the article.
 +
It would therefore make me very happy,
 +
if you, taking into account the arguments presented here, the Hifi Wiki
 +
project as a user.
 +
 
 +
Best regards, WikiSysop
 +
 
 +
---
 +
 
 +
My idea with the table in the section ''Links'' was, that it is possible for an Onkyo-interested person to compare others with that. In this case, the person is not interested in what other manufacturers have built for equalizers or cassette decks, hence the disappearance of the navigation. The table of contents should be for all those who need information quickly and could thus simply click on the link without having to scroll down forever.
 +
That's why I had designed it that way, just (in my eyes) user friendly.
 +
 
 +
On the subject of saving data:
 +
How can it be that I am wasteful with data, but in return it is stated what the CD player can not do? E.g. MP3 support, or automatic playback. Why are the formats ''CD-R'' and ''CD-RW'' listed twice, since you're supposed to save on data. It's like someone telling me I can't drive the wrong way down a one-way street, but they're standing in a no-parking zone.

Latest revision as of 09:58, 23 September 2009

Why was the very good version of "the questioner" adapted to "the template"? In my opinion, there was nothing to adapt - templates are not used to cut down good and valuable contributions. Question: Why did e.g. the very good overview of Onkyo disappeared? MfG, Uwe Again - only a badly structured post should be adjusted to the template -. a well structured one should not.

my opinion[edit]

Why was the post restored and incorrectly changed??? I do not wish it more! I have deleted my contributions, because the user Passat without contacting me beforehand in self-direction my contributions of the template adapted and (for me) with trouble created tables, which were intended for the equipment comparison, had deleted. As long as such self-willed users destroy other works, I am no longer willing to present my knowledge here. To my knowledge, templates should only be available for untrained or comfortable users. I ask in this athemzug also the administrator my contributions deleted by me and the pictures uploaded by me from the recovery console irretrievably to delete, since on the pictures the copyright lies by self production with me. affected of it are the complete contributions DX-6850, T-9890DSR + 3Pictures and 2 pictures of the EQ-201 --The Questioner 10:57, 22 Sep 2009 (UTC)

What's the point of overall overviews in the device data? You can find the complete overviews at the manufacturer, there is no need to list them for hundreds of devices. A general overview should be sufficient. By the way, the templates are not for untrained or comfortable users, but to get a uniform structure, so that the contributions are comparable. See Help New Device, quote, "Using the template ensures that articles on different devices look consistent." Also, I didn't add any errors to the posts, just added information from Onkyo documents! --Passat 14:23, 22 Sep 2009 (UTC)

Please let's try to discuss on a factual and constructive level.[edit]

My personal opinion:

1. you are both extremely dedicated and competent users and share the same wonderful hobby. - many thanks at this point.

2. if one makes the effort, and an obviously well elaborated article on Hifi-Wiki.de, such a change should at least be discussed at least BEFORE a discussion is initiated - that is not done and I'm sorry.

3. passat surely didn't want to annoy you with the changes, he also put a lot of time and effort into this project. However, in this case I can understand your anger. The change was certainly not malicious, but perhaps unnecessary.

4. basically I think that templates are not equal to "law". There are better ways to present a device - and worse, of course. I am of the opinion that individual freedom of design - if it is clear - is is not in conflict with comparability.

5 I would be true to the motto:


Better a good article that doesn't match the template than no article at all and an disgruntled user


to restore "The Questioner's" original version... and add in Passat's supplementary information from the Onkyo documents. Would that be an acceptable solution for both?

Best regards, Your WikiSysop

I have to agree with Passat that the device pages are the wrong place to list all related devices. After all, that's what Onkyo CD Player is for in this case!--Gero 15:28, 22 Sep 2009 (UTC)



Hi all, thanks for your perspective on things. Personally, I don't mind the summary table. Does it do any harm at this point?

But I don't understand why e.g. the following information has been lost has been lost:

  1. Rotation speed: 500 - 200 rpm
  2. reading speed: 1,2 - 1,4 meter/sec
  3. synchronous fluctuation: no longer measurable

Committed and motivated users like the questioner are very important for Hifi-Wiki in my opinion. In the sense of the project and with consideration for the authors of the articles, maybe we should think about what advantages a less strict application of the templates would have. Think, for example, of the sheer time savings of not having to adjust so many entries.

What do you think?

Best regards, your WikiSysop


I deleted this information because every CD player has this data without exception. It is part of the CD specification and therefore the mention is simply superfluous.

About the device table: As already mentioned, this table already exists. Why repeat it for each device? This only inflates the database unnecessarily. A unfortunately forgotten principle of data processing is called "data economy". This means that you should avoid storing data more than once where it is not absolutely necessary.

About the use of the templates: I think the idea of the templates is very good, because it makes the comparison of different devices much easier. And the templates are designed so flexibly that you can also add any information that goes beyond the templates, e.g. under "special equipment" and "remarks". --Passat 22:42, 22 Sep 2009 (UTC)


Hi Passat, thank you very much for the feedback. I think your arguments are also good and understandable.


@thequestioner: As you can see from the length of the discussion, we take your objections very seriously. In the end, your article has been preserved almost completely - "only" the overview-table was deleted - which I can put back into the article again into the article. It would therefore make me very happy, if you, taking into account the arguments presented here, the Hifi Wiki project as a user.

Best regards, WikiSysop

---

My idea with the table in the section Links was, that it is possible for an Onkyo-interested person to compare others with that. In this case, the person is not interested in what other manufacturers have built for equalizers or cassette decks, hence the disappearance of the navigation. The table of contents should be for all those who need information quickly and could thus simply click on the link without having to scroll down forever. That's why I had designed it that way, just (in my eyes) user friendly.

On the subject of saving data: How can it be that I am wasteful with data, but in return it is stated what the CD player can not do? E.g. MP3 support, or automatic playback. Why are the formats CD-R and CD-RW listed twice, since you're supposed to save on data. It's like someone telling me I can't drive the wrong way down a one-way street, but they're standing in a no-parking zone.